13 responses so far ↓

• 1 George Donnelly // Apr 9, 2010 at 21:40

  Start a trading network or move up to NH and join the one that formed recently.

• 2 drunkenatheist // Apr 9, 2010 at 21:46

  George, I was ready to off myself when Marc and I drove over to Jersey to see my family during the first snowstorm. Pffft on NH. I like wearing short sleeves too much.

  As far as starting a network… Well, I wouldn’t be opposed to it, but why is a woman’s work never done? Sigh.

  Okay, so seriously, part of it is that I have no friggin clue where to begin. Another part is that I have no clue if there is a serious – as in, people would be serious enough to commit to using such a network – interest in it. Maybe that’s part of the problem and there aren’t a lot of people seriously interested. I’ve been milling it over for the past few hours, but the thought of taking on such a project by myself is incredibly overwhelming.

  Anyway, thanks for commenting!

• 3 BroadSnark // Apr 10, 2010 at 12:54

  Just posted this link on a friends facebook page. If anyone knows the agorist low down it will be her. Hopefully, you will get some responses.

  Also, I’m trying to get a bunch of anarchist+ women together who are doing cool non-political stuff (like trading). If you are interested, pop me over an email (mel@broadsnark.com) and I’ll put you on the mailing list. More 411 here

  http://www.broadsnark.com/women-are-you-up-for-a-gathering/

• 4 drunkenatheist // Apr 10, 2010 at 13:37

  Yes yes yes yes yes! I’m definitely interested and I’ll contact you. Thanks so much!!

• 5 Kyle Bennett // Apr 10, 2010 at 13:37

  We’re pioneers in thought as well as action, DA, and we’re geographically separated, hamstrung by law, and enjoy only a shaky alliance marked by suspicion over motives as much as by commonality of purpose and values.

  I say that not to discourage, but to explain the lack of above the radar progress and to point out opportunities for advance. Most of us have no friggin clue where to begin, though some do more than others. There’s an opportunity to contribute in that, as well.

  The interest is serious, what is lacking so far is a clear path, focus, and confidence. And, dare I say it, leadership. These things take time. Nine women can’t make a baby in one month.

• 6 drunkenatheist // Apr 11, 2010 at 13:31

  Oh, Kyle, I don’t take your comments to be actively discouraging. Like you said, forming a cohesive system that will serve all of the purposes it should (heavy enough traffic to keep it sustainable, keeping everyone focused and keeping active participation up) isn’t going to be a ten minute project. It takes a lot of thankless, unpaid work, which a lot of people either can’t do or don’t have the inclination to take on. (And I realize I’m just as guilty as many other libertarians for sitting on my ass and writing a blog post to complain instead of, you know, DOING SOMETHING!)

  Despite all that, I know it is possible. Just looking past the standard venues for grey market selling or bartering (i.e., Craigslist, eBay, Amazon), there are a lot of great places that run successful swaps throughout the year. What I’m picturing in my head is a forum where users could both talk politics as well as set up barter/swaps for items, sell items, or barter/sell their services (or, you know, anything I’ve forgotten). If nothing else, I’m hoping that at least some discussion can come from this and maybe we’ll at least get a little bit closer to creating something.

  Thanks for the comment!

• 7 Kyle Bennett // Apr 11, 2010 at 15:17

  “I’m just as guilty as many other libertarians for sitting on my ass and writing a blog post…”

  Wrong. That is needed at this stage, communication, information sharing, learning as quickly as we can by leveraging each other’s insights and knowledge – and by establishing connections and relationships and trust. That does not mean it’s too early for action, only that we are as well served by blogging and facebook as we are by action for the moment.

  That will change, and is changing. Thought without action is as useless as action without thought. Some of us (actually, them, because I do not include myself in it yet) are transitioning to action. New Hampshire is the center of gravity for that now, but that too will change as this spreads. Even I, out here almost alone in the desert, feel my blood stirring and my feet tapping, and the growing need to act.

  Please keep me posted on your progress.

• 8 Kyle Bush // Apr 11, 2010 at 15:28

  I think there are a lot of small scale opportunities to do some agorism which are easy to overlook. I started working in a community garden at school, which I see as a way to move some economic activity out of the formal sector. Additionally, it gives me a good way to introduce some non-anarchists to our ideas: they are already doing direct action, even if they don’t realize it. Where I am there aren’t enough agorists to support a consciously agorist grey market, but there are plenty of people who are willing to participate in the informal economy for non-ideological reasons.

  I think a big thing that libertarians get hung up on is a desire to have anonymous economic relationships, or at least not to have a strong social aspect in this area. I feel that starting a grey market amongst people with whom you are closely associated with is going to be the most effective way to build the agora.

• 9 drunkenatheist // Apr 12, 2010 at 17:20

  “That is needed at this stage, communication, information sharing, learning as quickly as we can by leveraging each other’s insights and knowledge – and by establishing connections and relationships and trust.”

  Great point. This isn’t the sort of project where any of us could fly by the seat of our pants and not have the entire thing fall apart by the end of the year. I’m holding onto the hope that the discussions and networking result in a real alternative.

  “New Hampshire is the center of gravity for that now”

  That’s a big reason why I want to see more of the theoretical discussion and direct action to fan out across the country. I’m not going to go through a bulleted list of why I can’t (or don’t really want to) do the Free State Project, but I think the main issues for us are cost and wanting to see the project expand outside of NH. And my hatred for cold climates. Man, do I hate the snow.

  I plan on researching this idea some more and perhaps fleshing out a better idea of what I would like to see instead of the vague search terms I have been using so far. Though the comments and feedback I have been receiving have echoed a lot of our frustrations, they have helped give me a bit of guidance. I hope that I’ll be able to narrow my thoughts a little more and – if nothing else – be able to contribute in some way to the movement.

• 10 drunkenatheist // Apr 12, 2010 at 17:32

  @Kyle Bush: First, um, community garden? I’m jealous. I only really have enough room to do a balcony garden with a little bit of expansion on the ground floor.

  Second, you’ve hit on the key here. We can’t expect to just work with a handful of people who are already turned onto the message. A major frustration I have (that I think at least some people share) is that we – as in libertarians – are so wrapped up in our ideology that we forget how to talk about politics to others who don’t completely share our views.

  To paraphrase Jello Biafra, we have to start talking to our opponents – or even people who are apolitical. The more we really talk to others and the less we shriek dogmatic talking points, the easier it will be to get people to see our side. I came around because I was finally able to get my boyfriend to drop the cliched libertarian shrieking (which admittedly, he mainly pulled to piss off a former friend in the DNC). If I, a former Green and someone who still leans much more heavily “left” than “right,” could come around, then there’s hope for a lot more people.

  Ideally, I would like to see a forum in which agorism – in practice – is the primary focus, with theoretical discussion on agorism/anarchism/libertarianism/voluntaryism/etc., being the secondary focus. Get people interested in the things they can actually implement before walloping them with politics.

• 11 Kyle Bennett // Apr 12, 2010 at 19:17

  “I think a big thing that libertarians get hung up on is a desire to have anonymous economic relationships,”

  I hadn’t thought of that, but it rings somewhat true now that I do. Privacy is important, with regard to external observers, but I’ve never myself taken that to mean anonymity between trading partners. The ability to trade anonymously is important, if only because it expands the pool of potential partners, but it’s not likely to end up as the predominant mode. I sure wouldn’t like it if it did, anyway.

• 12 Mike Gogulski // Apr 13, 2010 at 14:26

  @drunkenatheist: I really like your observation here around the Jello Biafra quote.

  In what was likely a manic fit last year, I wrote the following at http://www.nostate.com/2575/liberty-camp-question-may-i-ask-a-question/:

  I strongly suggest that you consider the proposition that we might one day come to agree that the opportunity which exists in the broader libertarian context which is typically labeled among left-libertarians as a “problem” actually is a problem of emphasis, it is a problem of language, and it is a problem by which we fail to communicate with the stinky, filthy earth creatures WE NEED MOST to Arise!, take to the streets, go out of their tiny little cages and tiny little minds in the atomized industrial cities in order to enter the homes and lives and even bodies of their nearby conspecifics, and actualize an actual change in our actual circumstances such that our actual communication problems actually all disappear. Right now, or at least some time prior to next Tuesday. Action!

  The beam in my eye is of course greater than the mote in yours, but the path forward seems to be what you hint at, reluctantly, by shaming yourself for sitting on your butt writing a blog post while you could actually be DOING something (Kyle’s remark notwithstanding).

  We are not going to execute Google searches in the year 2010 and find the path to freedom in our lives, or to freedom for the world. If that path is to exist, we much each begin creating it, right where we are sitting now. To Kyle’s point, it often seems today that the best way to do so is to express ourselves online, and win minds and hearts. This is simultaneously true with the notion that action is also required.

  But this action is going to have to be local, on a personal scale.

  (reference again, please: beams, motes and eyes…)

  Do you know the manager of your local supermarket? Can the two of you together find a way to both avoid tax and enjoy a common benefit?

  Do you know of anyone in your community who is marginalized? (I am thinking here specifically of homeless people, not all of whom are insane.) Do possibilities exist to create work and income for them, and benefit to you at the same time?

  As agorists or libertarians or as anarchists, I suspect that many of us share a sort of persecution complex. We will avoid dropping ideological bombshells into group social interactions, for fear of being ostracized. We might find more subtle ways of introducing the ideology — and, most importantly, building the personal connections — even with those Dear Jello suggests are our opponents. When we develop sympathy and connection with other people, so much more becomes possible. These are the seeds of trust, and eventually networks of trust.

  Nota bene: I type this from my atomized situation in the industrial city, cut off mostly willfully from interaction with all but my flatmates, the newsstand cigarette vendor, the grocery clerks and the kebab guy on the square. Life still kinda bites, despite my imaginations.

• 13 Kyle Bennett // Apr 14, 2010 at 19:56

  @Mike: “To Kyle’s point, it often seems today that the best way to do so is to express ourselves online, and win minds and hearts.”

  To be clear, I’m not advocating inaction in favor of blogging, etc. I’m advising against beating one’s self up for taking time that could theoretically be used acting with blogging, etc., instead. And I don’t emphasize outreach as the best use of online time, but instead using it to gather and help distribute what is needed for effective action.

  Your point is well taken regarding local action in one’s community. I don’t do as much of that as even I would like, or to the standards some would set for me. You could be justified in seeing this as an excuse, but the main orientation I have toward my community is to get the hell out of it as soon as I can. It’s difficult to work up any enthusiasm for building roots.

  I’m not as isolated as you are, but it looks pretty isolated from my point of view nonetheless. I’m watching the game being played, and finding no way in my present circumstances to get into it, other than applying my unsolicited but hopefully helpful anyway advice and analysis from the sidelines. I have a plan, I’m not just whining that I’m helpless, but plans take time to execute. It’s agonizing.

  I’m almost hoping for some catastrophe to befall me so I can walk away from my obligations with a clear conscience. Until then, I’ve vowed to dispatch them in an honorable fashion – only for my own peace of mind, since those I’m beholden to don’t deserve honor. I will have no hope of ever being effective if I take the easy way out, I’d be morally hobbled and useless.

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